Sunday, August 23, 2009

Answer to comment

To all my blog readers,

Due to the length of this response to the last comment on my blog, I was forced to present it within my blog instead of within the comment section. The computer flatly refused to allow me more than a certain number of characters, and I had much more than that to say, so I had to resort to this method. The following is not part of my series on Revelation, it is merely a response to some comments made. Therefore do not feel that you need to read it to keep abreast of what I am teaching.

Now to my response.

Lyle, Lyle, what can I say.

First thank you for the sort of compliment. Now as to the rest.

You read, but you do not understand. That is not a surprise given that you have told me that you do not try to understand. You are viewing my writings through the lens that you have been programmed to see through. You will never see the validity of what I am writing, simply because it does not agree with your own personal so-called "revelation" from God.

Answer to point 1.
I never said that it was not possible that these seals were open about 95 AD. I said that there was no way to positively identify that it occurs at any particular time, as there is not enough information given. It cannot happen immediately after the ascension, but must happen before the 70th week was all I said. It has to happen after enough time has passed that there are a number of martyrs. That is all. I do not think the timing of when they begin to be opened is really all that crucial. So, I do not understand why this became a point you felt you had to address, as if I were incorrect about something.

Answer to point 2
Yes, the statement is true that the tribulation happens after the fifth seal. So is the statement that it occurs before the sixth seal is opened. I do not understand how, after all the scriptures I went through in the Old and New Testament showing what the signs heralding the Day of the Lord were, seeing that they correspond exactly to what was mentioned in Matthew 24, and now seeing them here, that you cannot see that they are the same exact thing. Matthew 24 clearly spells out chronologically that the abomination of desolation and tribulation occur before these spectacular celestial events of the sixth seal, which are so specific that there can be no mistake that they are one and the same as those in Matthew. The Day of the Lord signs come after both the abomination and tribulation.

The seven trumpets do not occur before the abomination of desolation and tribulation take place. More on this below. Yes, Revelation is chronological, but there is a method to that chronology that is yet to be taught. You will understand more of what that is when I get to these places that have you so convinced that you are correct and that I am wrong. By the time the seven trumpets sound, we are well into the second half of the 70th week. You will see how I come to that conclusion when we get there. I am not rearranging the book to suit my theories. I am understanding how the Lord is presenting information. It is the same exact technique that He used in the very first book of the Bible, Genesis. It is quite consistent with how he presents information. Somewhat like a journalist. This is why it is important to study the entire Bible, to learn how God writes things for us to understand. You will see how this is done, if you can be patient to wait until I get to those verses that give you such a zealous reaction. You keep jumping ahead in your anxiousness to take me where I do not yet want to go.

Answer to point 3
No, I am not the one missing something. I have not rearranged anything. It is impossible for the 70th week of Daniel to start at the same time as the sixth seal does. Matthew clearly puts the events of the abomination (which is halfway through the 70th week) and the tribulation before these events in the sixth seal. I recommend that you go back and review my blogs and all of those scriptures in Daniel, and those on the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming, and the rapture. I showed with great care in my exegesis that the 70th week of Daniel is not the Day of the Lord. Nor is it the tribulation. I have repeatedly said this over and over and the scriptures bear me out on this. Please review these scriptures. The information about end times is shown in many more places than just the book of Revelation. My entire blog is built on that precept. It appears that you use the book of Revelation as pretty much your only guide. Might I humbly suggest that this approach can lead to error. May I also in my defense say that I have not rearranged anything in the book of Revelation. That accusation is unjust and inaccurate. I have shown that the chronology of Revelation, which I have not rearranged in any way, corresponds exactly to the timeline given in other scriptures, which is exactly how it should be. Scriptures bear out other scriptures when exegesis is correct. As to my squeezing chapters 12 and 13 between the two seals, I have not even gotten near those chapters yet. You have no idea how this will all work out, so please do not make unsubstantiated accusations, based on your assumptions.

Answer to point 4
I am growing weary of repeating myself on this issue. The tribulation is not the 70th week. Please, please go to Daniel and read the passages referring to it. Then go to Matthew 24 and read it. Nowhere, NOWHERE do you see that the entire 70th week is referred to as the tribulation. In Daniel 12 it shows that the time of Jacob's trouble comes after the abomination of desolation. In Matthew, (as well as Mark and Luke) Christ clearly teaches that the great tribulation comes after the abomination of desolation. The term "tribulation" as being synonymous with the 70th week (and Day of the Lord) was coined by some pre-tribulational prophecy teachers, not by the scriptures, and not by Christ. No writer of any book in the Bible makes this assertion when writing on this subject. It is a man-made terminology that is NOT substantiated by the scriptures. This error only leads to more error. Until you rid yourself of this error, you will have difficulty coming to the truth. The tribulation has nothing to do with the seventh seal through the seventh vial. It is over by the time those begin, as those events are precisely what cut it short. People will be scrambling to survive and will not give a hoot what Christians are doing at that point. We have gone back and forth over these issues numerous times now (in personal emails and the blog comments), and I think it is time that you simply accept that I am not impressed nor convinced by your arguments, as they simply do not hold up to good exegesis. I will not revisit this particular issue again with you, so you might as well chalk me up to a lost cause to your viewpoint. I have shown you by scriptures over and over why I teach what I do, so there is nothing more I can do. I do agree with your last statement. The 70th week does end with the 7th vial, and the Day of the Lord does continue on - for a millennia to be precise.

If you are interested in seeing how I pull it all together, please continue to read, but as far as this same debate that we have been beating to death, I am done writing about it. I will not respond to this same argument again. It is becoming repetitious. Most of the answers to your comments can be found in my blog, if you were to read it carefully before you write to me. I think that might be the problem. I get the impression that you skim it to look for things to disagree with, but never really study it to see the logic of what I present and how it lines up with all that has been written in the other scriptures. Nor do you consider that you might be wrong and that I might be right. I can hear you saying the same thing back at me, but the difference is, I do take what you say and go to the scriptures to see if you have something that I have missed. I do that with anyone who disagrees with me. It is a way of checking myself to see if I have been careless and gotten something wrong. I have been known to change my mind - drastically in fact. And even more than once. I was brought up in a die-hard pre-tribulational church. Now look at me. To date, I find that your statements (the ones I disagree with) do not line up with the scriptures. It is the Berean in me. That will not change.

I'm not trying to be unkind here, but I think the reason you are having a problem is because my exegesis does not line up with what you feel was "revealed" to you through your meditative techniques, which you explained to me. I would like to remind you what you wrote to me about this:

"I did learn many years ago, how to get revelation knowledge from God concerning the word of God. He has already promised us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher. But a little reasoning will tell us that it takes more than just study. I read over a scripture (maybe a few verses or a chapter or two) over and over - without trying to understand it at all! I read it maybe 50 times. I pray in the spirit while I am reading, and in between. I keep my mind on those scriptures as much as possible, and I continually ask the Holy Spirit to tell me what He had in mind as the author. In other words, I don't try to use my understanding at all!!!! I read Revelation over and over, maybe 50 times. I did NOT try to understand anything. Of course, I read Daniel many times too. Connie, I am sorry that you do not like my method of teaching. I got it from the Holy Spirit. I will do my best to help you, but please allow me to do it this way. It is the way He taught me."

Your method of teaching me, if you recall, was to have me try to guess what the "revelation" that you had received was, based on some hints that you gave me. I refused to play your game. You were right in that I do not care for your method of either teaching or learning God's Word. First of all, 50 times? Is that all? Over the past twenty plus years I have read and studied not only Revelation, but all the major and minor prophets and the relevant N.T. writings hundreds and hundreds of times comparing scripture to scripture, precept with precept, along with much prayer and as much understanding as God would grant me. We are commanded to use our brains. We are to worship Him with our minds - with our intelligence, and that is also how we are to study His Word. THIS is the way God expects us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. I seriously doubt that your method of teaching or learning is the approved method by the Holy Spirit, if I have to judge by the scripture's parameters. Why do you think the Bereans were commended for checking everything Paul said against the scriptures? Have you stopped to consider that when you don't use this method and rely on what you hear in your head that you can be hearing someone other than the Holy Spirit? The way to check is to compare what you feel is "revealed" to the scriptures. In other words, be a Berean. It is not uncommon for the Lord to suddenly open up the scriptures to our understanding, when we have read them over many times and still missed the content of what they are saying; however; the first thing we have to do is see if that understanding is from the Lord by checking it against all the other scriptures. Many people have felt they have been shown things by the Lord that others have missed. I will give you a few names: Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses; Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons, Mohammed, founder of Islam. Shall I continue? The list is enormous. Their problem was that they did not test their "revelations" against the Word of God, and look how much error came out of it.

You say you prefer not to use understanding. Perhaps you should have, and then you would have seen the problems with your argument before you began telling others that they were incorrect. Let me point out at least one inconsistency, nay, a major flaw in your argument. You say that the abomination comes after the 7 trumpets. However, the huge group in white robes that appears suddenly in heaven in chapter seven is said to come out of great tribulation. As mentioned above, the term tribulation as applying to the entire 70th week is not scriptural. It is man-made and cannot be used to prove a point when the word itself is the word being questioned. Only scripture can define the word, when the word is the object in question. But to make matters worse for you, in point of fact, the term used in this passage is the great tribulation, which no matter which camp you are in (pre-trib, post, etc.), it is agreed that the "great tribulation" refers to that time period after the abomination of desolation.. So you have a major problem with your timeline. Had you noticed that discrepancy at all? You would have, had you been trying to understand instead of just accepting whatever random thoughts came into your mind. You accuse me of rearranging the scriptures, which I have not done, but you have done exactly that yourself to accommodate your theory, by moving the abomination to the end of the 7 trumpets when the great tribulation has clearly come before chapter seven.

I have noticed one thing in our debates. You continually present me with your opinion based upon your "revelation" as to what God means. You have no other scriptures to back up your interpretation. I continually present (in my blog and rebuttals) a preponderance of scriptures as to what God says, backing up everything with multiple scriptures. (Even if I have not listed them here, I have referred you back to them in my blog.) I'm sorry that I cannot find that the scriptures agree with your "revelation", as I understand you presenting it. Do you seriously think I would abandon the scriptures in favor of an unsubstantiated "revelation" that is not borne out by scripture? I mean, really, seriously? I don't think so. I will continue on as a Berean, and I will stand by what I have written.

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